Se7en (1995)
This podcast episode delves into the cinematic masterpiece "Seven," directed by David Fincher and featuring notable performances from Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman. Throughout our discourse, we explore the intricate narrative that revolves around two detectives as they pursue a serial killer who employs the seven deadly sins as his modus operandi. The episode highlights the profound psychological implications of the film, particularly the moral dilemmas faced by the characters, culminating in a deeply unsettling conclusion. Our analysis also touches upon the film's stylistic elements, including its haunting imagery and sound design, which significantly enhance the viewer's experience. We invite you to join us in dissecting this iconic film, reflecting on its themes, character dynamics, and the lasting impact it has left on the genre.
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Transcript
Mr. Mayor of the People, I am.
Speaker B:Just gonna say that our listening numbers have gone up since you left, so.
Speaker C:Oh, man.
Speaker C:Early, early retirement.
Speaker B:I think it's all coincidental, but of course, yeah.
Speaker B:Welcome to the what's up early Podcast where we fashion ourselves cinematic judge and Jerry.
Speaker B:My name is J.J. crowder.
Speaker B:I'm here with my co host, Matt Sinergia.
Speaker C:Better red than dead.
Speaker C:I'm back.
Speaker C:We excited and we're gonna be more fun again.
Speaker C:These two clowns born without me.
Speaker B:Alec Burgess.
Speaker A:Let's get it.
Speaker A:You're the boring out of the three, Mr. Man of the People.
Speaker B:I'm just gonna say that our listening numbers have gone up since you left, so.
Speaker A:Oh, man.
Speaker C:Early, early retirement.
Speaker B:I think it's all coincidental, but of course, yeah.
Speaker B:Anyway, we appreciate you tuning in.
Speaker B:Go ahead and hit that follow subscribe like bell notification buttons.
Speaker B:Tell a friend about us.
Speaker B:Tell a family member about us.
Speaker B:Please don't tell anybody related to this movie that we're talking about.
Speaker B:We got one of those in Alec.
Speaker B:I don't need anybody else.
Speaker B:We just, you know, tell people that are the exact opposite of this movie.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then we can move forward.
Speaker B:But yeah, we gotta welcome Matson back and I think this should be an interesting one because I. I think we got him on a first time watch here.
Speaker B:So this is kind of exciting, but we're kicking off September, which is insane to me, but yeah, we're kicking off September with a Brad Pitt month.
Speaker B:It doesn't rhyme quite as well as Amy Adams.
Speaker B:There's no alliteration here.
Speaker B:But that's okay.
Speaker B:We're kicking it off with a banger, in my opinion, with seven.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:It was written by Andrew Kevin Walker, it was directed by David Fincher.
Speaker B:It stars Morgan Freeman, Brad Pitt, Kevin Spacey.
Speaker B:Andrew Kevin Walker, hilariously enough.
Speaker B:Had to throw him in there, even though he's in there for a minute.
Speaker B:Daniel Zakapa, Gwyneth Paltrow, John Cassini, Bob Mack, and yeah, that's about it, everybody.
Speaker B:Well, we'll call Arley Ermey just because him in there.
Speaker B:Anyway, this movie is about two detectives, a rookie and a veteran hunt who hunt a serial killer who uses the seven deadly sins as his motives.
Speaker B:I think motives is the right.
Speaker B:Maybe MO is more like modus operandi is more the proper term there, not motive.
Speaker B:But his reasoning is a little different than the seven deadly sins.
Speaker B:But that's okay, Alec.
Speaker B:This was your movie, your pick.
Speaker B:It would have gone on the list from me if you hadn't chosen it, so this was coming on the list one way or another.
Speaker B:But what made you choose this one, my friend?
Speaker A:Oh, easy.
Speaker A:I never seen it all the way through before.
Speaker B:Oh, really?
Speaker A:Shocker.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:So the reason behind that, because I'd seen all the parts, knew everything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Going into it.
Speaker A:But when Oshi first pitched it to me as, oh, it's a scary movie.
Speaker A:So immediately I was like, cool, we're never watching it.
Speaker A:But I'd seen parts, bits, pizzas throughout time.
Speaker A:I just never sat down and actually watched.
Speaker A:Was never really on my radar, as far as that goes.
Speaker A:And so when I had an opportunity to watch all the way through, I put on the podcast.
Speaker A:And you know how they always ask, like, where did.
Speaker A:Where did he go wrong?
Speaker A:And people like, we never saw it coming.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:This was such a great watch, being able to sit down and watch it all the way through, watch it unfold, watch the little teeny, tiny bits.
Speaker A:And I think that was probably the best part for me on this watch because I'd seen enough of it or pretty much all of it in different pieces.
Speaker A:I could focus on the little things, and they do a really good job in the little mannerisms, Even something that I'm not too, you know, keen on or pick up on frequently.
Speaker A:But the use of sound and everything is just.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's bone chilling in a good way.
Speaker A:So I was.
Speaker A:I was thoroughly enjoyed.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker B:All right, Matson, first time watcher, period.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Did you know much about this movie other than it existed?
Speaker C:I knew literally nothing about this.
Speaker C:I mean, I saw the actors, I was like, okay.
Speaker C:And then we started watching.
Speaker C:It's like, got shades of horror vibes.
Speaker C:I was like, this can't be that.
Speaker C:These actors don't do stuff like that.
Speaker C:And I obviously started watching.
Speaker C:It's like, oh, okay, this is like a serial killer movie.
Speaker C:And I texted the.
Speaker C:The guys.
Speaker C:I was like, this feels like Gotham without Batman, basically.
Speaker C:Because, man, it was a depressingly real movie in that sense that it just hits you hard, keeps hitting you in real bleak, real grungy.
Speaker C:I mean, gut reaction.
Speaker C:I like the movie.
Speaker C:I especially enjoyed the ending, as you guys know me.
Speaker C:I love.
Speaker C:Like, it was real.
Speaker C:Like, probably how it could go down.
Speaker C:Like, really real and just.
Speaker C:Just a heavy movie pacing at Times was a little like.
Speaker C:Yeah, but pretty nitpicky.
Speaker C:I mean, overall, like, not a movie I certainly was expecting to watch.
Speaker C:Had no idea Brad Pitt was in this or why am I forgetting the voice of God?
Speaker B:Morgan Freeman.
Speaker C:Morgan Freeman.
Speaker C:I mean, it was a really good movie.
Speaker C:Like, I really, I really liked it.
Speaker C:It's just heavy, mentally exhausting and depressing and just reminded me like Dark side of life and Kevin Spacey, like, I heard his.
Speaker C:He talked for like one second.
Speaker C:Oh, I know who this is gonna be.
Speaker C:And what a weird, perfect person to put in for the villain.
Speaker C:And yeah, I thought it was awesome.
Speaker C:I just, I'm used to seeing Brad Pitt eat food in every scene and he didn't do that.
Speaker C:So he got close.
Speaker A:It was close to every.
Speaker C:Yeah, there's, there's several times.
Speaker C:But no, like one of those movies.
Speaker C:Like, I didn't expect this to be bad when I saw those two actors, but definitely wasn't what I was expecting.
Speaker B:Expected, sure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:This is, it's one of my favorite, like, guilty pleasure movies, I think because like, I enjoy the hell out of this movie for so many reasons.
Speaker B:But it's weird.
Speaker B:So I, I, it's also very nostalgic for me too.
Speaker B:Like, here we go with my obligatory age drop.
Speaker B:But when I was 14 years old is when this came out.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh.
Speaker B:You were like blinks or like little aliens that were just learning to talk maybe.
Speaker B:But it's so like, I saw this movie in the theater.
Speaker B:We snuck into it and it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was still living in Kentucky at this time.
Speaker B:Me and my buddy Lamar, like, we bought a movie for some PG13 or PG movie and snuck into this one in our little four screen theater in the mall.
Speaker B:And I left like completely disturbed.
Speaker B:Like, I was like, so up.
Speaker B:This is one of those moments where I was like, this is why there's a rating system because now I'm gonna have a hard time.
Speaker B:And I was always even that age.
Speaker B:Like a fan of horror.
Speaker B:Horror doesn't do to me what a movie like this does to me because to Mattson's point, like, it feels very grounded in reality.
Speaker B:Like when you talk about like our, like the serial killers that we're all obsessed with or so many people are obsessed with now.
Speaker B:And like, we watch these movies and shows about them, we see it all aggrandized in a Hollywood way in most of the time.
Speaker B:This is like the underbelly of, of New York City, right?
Speaker B:And the gritty, dark, gross, disgusting part of New York City that people still live in and thrive in.
Speaker B:And then here's where someone that can become a serial killer that's this dastardly just what in the actual fucking is going on with this person type thing.
Speaker B:And so that reality, to me is far more disturbing and scary than a horror movie that I'm like, jason's dead, or, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Or, like, that's not this.
Speaker B:I'm like, well, now I'm afraid to, like, go eat too much or be a lazy son of a.
Speaker B:Or, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, so it makes you think.
Speaker B:And so that's why I really, like this movie has stuck with me my whole life.
Speaker B:And it's funny, too, because it's also, like, a joke that we do.
Speaker B:Like, anybody says something about, like, man, what's in the bar?
Speaker B:I'm like, what's in the box?
Speaker B:Because, like, I can't.
Speaker B:And that becomes a joke to me.
Speaker B:But when I watch the movie and that part's on, that is so hard to watch.
Speaker B:And Brad Pitt just absolutely kills that moment where he's just, like, trying to talk, trying to reason through it, and he can't do it.
Speaker B:Like, yeah, the facial expressions and the emotion that goes through those moments.
Speaker B:But, yeah, that's like a running.
Speaker B:What's in the box?
Speaker B:Horrible.
Speaker A:Horrible.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I love this movie.
Speaker B:So when.
Speaker B:When you picked it out, like, I saw it on the list, I was like, yep, this was going on one way or another because I think it's.
Speaker B:It's peak A.
Speaker B:Early Brad Pitt.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like, Brad Pitt's shifted a little, and as he's gotten older, which is good.
Speaker B:But this is peak, early, young Brad Pitt for me.
Speaker B:Like, this is what I think of when someone says Brad Pitt movies is.
Speaker B:Seven's the first thing that pops into my head.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I would not have guessed that.
Speaker C:I know.
Speaker B:I mean, there's some great ones.
Speaker B:Don't get me wrong.
Speaker B:He has some phenomenal movies, but this was the first one that I saw that, like, stuck with you.
Speaker B:Yeah, like, because I. I mean, he got his.
Speaker B:He got his start with Thelma and Louise.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And then he had some.
Speaker B:Really stick with you.
Speaker B:Yeah, I know.
Speaker B:Great movie.
Speaker B:But that's not a Brad Piggly.
Speaker B:But, yeah, so, like, he's got some weird ones.
Speaker B:But, like, this is the first one.
Speaker B:I think that I remember him going.
Speaker B:I was like, oh, Brad Pitt's no joke.
Speaker B:Like, this is a really good actor.
Speaker B:And when you pair him with Morgan Freeman, who plays this, like, old, just crotchety, like, hardened, but wants, like, truly has a Heart of gold.
Speaker B:And he says it in the scene.
Speaker B:He's like, you want to believe that because you're done.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, this is your justification.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, you're a good man and you want to help solve these things and you don't believe that the world's a shitty place the way you think it is in general.
Speaker B:You just can't do it anymore.
Speaker B:Which is also I. I respect it.
Speaker B:And I think that's the other piece that I love about this movie, is the dichotomy of we're following a serial killer who obviously is up and does some really nasty.
Speaker B:But you also have these two guys that are starting to figure it out and want to save the world through any means necessary and then has tried to and cannot break, make a dent and realizes it, and it's just done.
Speaker B:And so they're working together to try.
Speaker B:I just love, like, the whole story is so connected and so good and the dialogues there.
Speaker B:I just think it's a great movie.
Speaker B:That makes you think.
Speaker B:Scares the piss out of me every time I watch it.
Speaker A:I will say I did enjoy the.
Speaker A:How they kept the differing of styles so very distinct between Morgan Freeman.
Speaker A:Bad pit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, I would.
Speaker A:I was just giggling kind of near the beginning after.
Speaker A:Morgan Freeman's been dropping, you know, hints about where to look.
Speaker A:You know, the Canterbury Tales, Dante's Inferno.
Speaker A:And Brad Pitt has that.
Speaker A:The patrol guy pick him up.
Speaker A:Like the dummy versions.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So good.
Speaker A:Fourth grade reading versions.
Speaker A:I was cackling because every single book that is, you know, they're looking at.
Speaker A:They're pulling from those.
Speaker A:Those are slogs to get through.
Speaker A:And I think Brad Pitt even says a line, something about Dante and poetry or.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It keeps it to both the points you guys made.
Speaker A:Very relatable, even from a, you know, point of view.
Speaker A:Or a scene where you don't really need it to be.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it still keeps it grounded enough to be like anybody who's read Dante's Inferno knows exactly, exactly what's going on and why it's such a pain to get through.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so I. I enjoyed that.
Speaker A:And they kept it with the styles of, you know, Morgan Freeman's the guy who's gonna go sit up all night in the library because he's got a problem to figure out.
Speaker A:And Brad Pitt's like, give me the spark notes.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:What do I need to know?
Speaker C:I love what I need to know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think some of the imagery, too.
Speaker B:Like, this is a very David Fincher thing.
Speaker B:And, like, this is what launched him.
Speaker B:Before this, he was known for music videos.
Speaker B:And then all of a sudden he made this.
Speaker B:And I think there was one before this, but this one just, like, catapulted him.
Speaker B:We wouldn't have Fight Club if it weren't for Seven.
Speaker B:And so it's one of those things where everybody says, seven's the super, Fight Club's the superior movie.
Speaker B:I don't agree.
Speaker B:And I think.
Speaker B:I mean, don't get me wrong, I Love Fight Club 2, but I think if it weren't for this movie.
Speaker B:I know, right?
Speaker B:If it weren't for this movie, Fight Club I don't think would have gotten made.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:But, like, the visual, the imagery in this film, to your point, Alec, and I love that you brought up the sound and the music and, like, the use of silence, like, the lack of music and background in sometimes, in some cases as well, like, is really haunting and uncomfortable.
Speaker B:But, like, the imagery, and it's a very David Fincher thing, like, where it'll flash, like, quick images and you only see enough to go, wait, what the hell was that?
Speaker B:And then you move forward.
Speaker B:Like, he does things visually that.
Speaker B:That subconsciously stimulate you to drive you to get into the moment in these films.
Speaker B:And I think this one's a great example of that.
Speaker B:Like, right before.
Speaker B:Again, I go back to this end, but right before he.
Speaker B:Spoiler.
Speaker B:If you.
Speaker B:God, if you haven't seen this, I guess you're like Matson and the person of the people.
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker C:But, yeah, like, man of the people.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:Well, I'm not just talking to you this time, so I gotta.
Speaker B:I gotta spread the love.
Speaker B:Persons of the people, anyway.
Speaker A:People.
Speaker B:Yeah, at the end, like, where you have that flash of Gwyneth Paltrow's face and you don't know, it's fast enough that you're like, wait, was that her in bed with him or was that her head in a box?
Speaker B:Because you don't know.
Speaker B:And so you're just, like, uncomfortable.
Speaker B:And then you start to think, oh, what image is he?
Speaker B:Because I wonder if he's flashing both images as in head.
Speaker B:Like, he knows it's her head in a box.
Speaker B:Is he seeing that in his imagination or is he remembering these great moments in bed or in the past?
Speaker B:And I'm like, David Fincher, there's something wrong with you, dude.
Speaker B:Because, like, this is like that imagery.
Speaker B:And then, like, the dark, the.
Speaker B:You know, the over saturation of the dark coloring and the.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It's a work of Art, this film, in my opinion.
Speaker B:And it drags you into that discomfort and that creepiness, and you're like, what is going on?
Speaker B:So it's a really good film as far as a lot of that stuff goes, too.
Speaker A:That's a good point, because something that got me, because up until the point where you have Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman actually find about John Doe and they find his address, right.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's very much, you know, three, three and a half steps behind, essentially what you're dealing with.
Speaker A:And you don't have that really uncomfortable feeling or, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's too far away almost.
Speaker A:You're too separated from it.
Speaker A:But when you get Kevin Spacey, like, at the top of the stairs and he stops and kind of does that thing where he stops and looks and realizes, shoot, like, I can't.
Speaker A:Can't go forward, can't go backwards.
Speaker A:And it's, it's just very simply, like, you know, it's him, but at the same time, it could not be.
Speaker A:And it just makes you uncomfortable from that point.
Speaker A:That's when I really kind of, you know, get to the.
Speaker A:The teeth, the spine tingling and just kind of shifting awkwardly and like, shoot, what is gonna happen next?
Speaker A:Because that's also about the time where, you know, you even get the phone call, like, I'm changing my timeline.
Speaker A:And the movie itself picks up.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it starts going much faster.
Speaker A:The pacing picks up and it's, it's.
Speaker A:It's like putting you into the, you know, second person almost viewing of this film, which is stupidly good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I've often wondered, too, if they hadn't gone to his house in that moment, would he have become Wrath?
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, that's the other question is, it's like he's pushing real hard to solve this case and find this guy, but if he had not figured it out, and then you have to think about that from.
Speaker B:What's his phase, like, Morgan Freeman's character's perspective too, because, you know, he's the kind of guy that's going to sit and stew on this shit for the rest of his life and he's going to have to ask that question, like, if I hadn't asked my guy to get me that list.
Speaker B:And then we go to his place and we run into him.
Speaker B:Does.
Speaker B:Does Wrath happen?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Does, like.
Speaker B:So it's just at least in the way that it ends up happening.
Speaker B:And we, you know, we don't know because he doesn't hint that, like, that was always the plan.
Speaker B:But yeah, and the fact that the timelines moved up, like, those questions, like, are just as haunting as what we actually see on the screen is like, what would have happened or what could have changed that?
Speaker B:Or, man, at that moment too, you're like, does Brad Pitt wish he would have popped him in the alley?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, there's so many things that you're like, oh, this poor bastard's gonna go live in a jail cell and have to think about this for the rest of his life.
Speaker B:And just.
Speaker B:And you know he's gonna blame himself and it's just like, oh, there's no winning in this movie.
Speaker B:Like, the only person that wins is John Doe.
Speaker B:Like, which is horrid to think about, but yeah, it's the only person that wins.
Speaker B:It's crazy.
Speaker A:But yeah, I was, I was thinking this a similar thing, and it almost felt like John Doe picked him to be wrath in the alley.
Speaker A:Right after you realize that, hey, this, this motherfucker just chased me through buildings, over buildings, under buildings, cross traffic, just everywhere.
Speaker A:It's like this, this could be it.
Speaker A:But it does beg the question, at least for me, like, what was the timeline or the plan if that didn't happen?
Speaker A:Yeah, they're like, did he have backups?
Speaker A:Is there one of.
Speaker A:In those 47,000 notebooks he had that?
Speaker A:You know, he's just got contingency plan upon contingency plan because that's very much a.
Speaker A:How do you stop the guy who's been planning this for, you know, this point, like 10, 15, 20 years.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like there's.
Speaker A:You got no shot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And especially with targets where your only correlation is the seven deadly sins, everybody has multiples.
Speaker B:Everybody.
Speaker A:There is no linkage.
Speaker A:There's no trend to follow.
Speaker A:And so it was, it was very interesting.
Speaker A:I had a similar train of thought.
Speaker A:Mine was, I wonder if he picked him after he realized, like, oh, dude, this.
Speaker A:This guy's chasing me past what is normal.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker B:Crazy town.
Speaker B:Well, and then like some of the kills too.
Speaker B:Like the opening kill, like the dude, like, and I love like the build up to it too.
Speaker B:Like, that's one of my other things is like, they don't just drop you in this disturbing scene.
Speaker B:They like set the stage for this fat ass is buried and he's got his face down in the spaghetti.
Speaker B:And like.
Speaker B:Yeah, but did you check his.
Speaker B:As he still breathe?
Speaker B:The only way he's breathing is if he learned to breathe.
Speaker B:Spaghetti sock.
Speaker B:Like, you're just like, what the hell?
Speaker B:And then you walk in and it's just dark.
Speaker B:That all you can see is the silhouette with the flashlight of this very large person.
Speaker B:And you're just like, this is wild.
Speaker B:And then the intricacy of the scenes, like, where you use the grease to spell out, you know what?
Speaker B:I'm just like, this is nuts.
Speaker B:And then you get into, like, the guy that's been alive for a year strapped to the bed, like, get out of here.
Speaker B:Like, dedication disturbing, man.
Speaker C:Wild.
Speaker C:Cut.
Speaker C:Not like the.
Speaker C:The one that.
Speaker C:Yeah, the one I got with the dude that I thought was dead.
Speaker C:That was, like, ghostly white.
Speaker C:And then.
Speaker C:Is it.
Speaker C:They're just like, dude, for, like, you're saying to.
Speaker C:For a year, man.
Speaker C:The dedication and the amount of air fresheners, and I just love that the tenant was, like, best tenant I ever had.
Speaker C:Paid on tie.
Speaker C:Like, you're like, dude.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker C:And it was funny.
Speaker C:It was that scene, like, leading into that when they were getting to the apartment, I was like, man, this feels like Gotham.
Speaker C:Like, this is just home.
Speaker C:Sorry for sneezing.
Speaker C:I just feel like we were in the drugs, the drudges of, like, society, right?
Speaker C:Then you're like, yeah, of course no one's gonna care notice, because ain't nobody trying to go to the next door.
Speaker C:It's the place you'd want nothing to do with your neighbor.
Speaker C:And then the juxtaposition of that.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:The pride lady that would rather die than look ugly on the outside, and she obviously lived a very nice place and everything, and it just.
Speaker C:It was pretty crazy.
Speaker C:But I think going back to what I loved, Kevin Spacey's character, just the.
Speaker C:I like when Dave Mills was asking, like, he was like, can I call you insane?
Speaker C:Or whatever.
Speaker C:And he's like, if that makes you feel.
Speaker C:What do you say?
Speaker C:If that makes you feel comfortable.
Speaker C:And he's like, it makes me feel whatever.
Speaker C:I think that's what he said, makes me feel really comfortable.
Speaker C:Like, there was just such good back and forth there.
Speaker C:Then you got Morgan for trying to be, like, the calm, kind of depressing presence.
Speaker C:And the real kicker for me, though, is at the end when the serial killer John Doe realizes that he didn't know that David didn't know they was pregnant.
Speaker C:He's like.
Speaker C:And he's like, oh.
Speaker C:It's like, oh, man.
Speaker C:I was telling Tay.
Speaker C:I was like, man, I like that movie.
Speaker C:Because most people to say, you probably wouldn't kill him.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, certainly it's people that wouldn't.
Speaker C:But at the same time, like, man, there's a lot of people that Went.
Speaker C:I was like, I'm sure I probably would, like, just ruined his future life.
Speaker C:And current, like, just.
Speaker C:It's all gone.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:My only question is, because I was watching that I had.
Speaker C:I determined.
Speaker C:I don't know how the last, like, 15 seconds ended because I.
Speaker C:He killed him.
Speaker C:Started walking away.
Speaker C:Did he.
Speaker C:Did they just have to put him in custody or did he kill himself?
Speaker C:I literally missed that last teeny part.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, no, they show it.
Speaker B:They cut to back by the police station and they're putting him in a squad car.
Speaker B:And the part.
Speaker B:Morgan Freeman stand there talking to.
Speaker A:Arlie.
Speaker A:Ermie.
Speaker B:Arley.
Speaker B:Ermie.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He's talking to him, saying, you know, if he needs anything.
Speaker B:And the guy says, where are you gonna.
Speaker B:You're gonna.
Speaker B:Where are you gonna be?
Speaker B:He says, around, I'll be around.
Speaker B:And, like, then it cuts.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:That's the end of it.
Speaker B:And so you don't actually know what happens, how it goes.
Speaker B:You mean, you obviously know to a.
Speaker C:Certain degree, but, yeah, he's not getting.
Speaker C:He killed the dude.
Speaker C:They.
Speaker C:They can't.
Speaker C:Yeah, but every.
Speaker C:That's one of those.
Speaker C:Be interesting because you, like, everyone is like, dude needed to die.
Speaker C:Like, yeah, good on you, man.
Speaker C:And I know what he did to him.
Speaker B:You're like, yeah, well, that's.
Speaker B:I love the moment in that same scene at the end when John Doe realizes that he's gonna do it.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Because it, like, there's this tension where Brad Pitt's characters.
Speaker B:Mills is, like, thinking about it.
Speaker B:Pulls the gun out, puts it down.
Speaker B:He's crying, he's yelling, he's hollering, he's asking questions.
Speaker B:And then all of a sudden, like, there's this moment where it's like he picks the gun up and you see Kevin space.
Speaker B:You just go.
Speaker B:And like, that moment, to me is one of the greatest moments in cinema history.
Speaker B:Because it's just like the tension of will.
Speaker B:He won't.
Speaker B:He should, he shouldn't.
Speaker B:He.
Speaker B:Like, for like a minute and a half, you're just sitting there going, what's he gonna do?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And then that he just this sigh of relief and, like, victory right before he goes.
Speaker B:And you're.
Speaker B:And it's like, so unsatisfyingly satisfying because you're like, he needs to die.
Speaker B:I'm glad he did it.
Speaker B:I probably wouldn't have taken that long to do it.
Speaker B:But at the same time, you're like, oh, how interesting would it have been too, if he hadn't done it?
Speaker B:And then you have to realize like now John Doe's got to live with the fact that he couldn't complete his great mission story, whatever.
Speaker B:So I think either way they go has an interesting ending, right?
Speaker B:Like, because, you know, nobody ends up in a good spot regardless of how any of this goes.
Speaker B:Which there's no.
Speaker B:There's no good guys.
Speaker B:There's no happy endings in this movie.
Speaker B:Like, this is just a dark, twisty, hurt your soul kind of.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:And I think it gets down to unfortunately the root of.
Speaker B:In a bind, in a crazy ass situation.
Speaker B:Human nature.
Speaker B:Like, we don't know how we'll react in certain situations and what we'll do in certain areas.
Speaker B:But I know what I think I would do, right?
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:And like I said, I. I always go, man, what took you so long?
Speaker B:Like, I.
Speaker B:The instant he said, oh, you didn't know that dude would have been done.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, maybe even before that he might not even have gotten the chance to.
Speaker B:The instant I realized that my wife's head's in a box.
Speaker C:Oh, like they couldn't have casted Alec in this.
Speaker C:He would.
Speaker C:He would have just heard the first like three words, man.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:He walked away and then like, how do you feel?
Speaker C:He's like, felt great.
Speaker A:Through the chest.
Speaker A:One of the dome.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker C:We always talked about one of the other.
Speaker C:See the dude that had.
Speaker C:They put on a murderous strap on and had to.
Speaker C:And he like you said he.
Speaker C:He.
Speaker C:Her and.
Speaker C:Yeah, I. I mean, you ever have sex again?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Not even.
Speaker B:Could you imagine the trauma?
Speaker C:Quite sure about that because.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:The PTSD alone, dude.
Speaker B:Oh, you're done.
Speaker B:Dude.
Speaker B:I don't even think you get a heart on ever again.
Speaker B:Like, are you me like, oh, we.
Speaker B:Dude, that would.
Speaker B:Oh, and.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:That's another for another bit character like actor that you see a lot that doesn't do anything.
Speaker B:He played that so perfectly.
Speaker B:Like just thoroughly distraught.
Speaker C:Like, oh, yeah, you.
Speaker C:I was watching when his scene was like, any.
Speaker C:I was like, I don't think any amount of therapy is bringing that guy back.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker C:Even when they were asking the questions, he kept saying, I don't know.
Speaker C:And they're like, press them on.
Speaker C:Like, how could you.
Speaker C:Because you know, they're thinking, how could you do this?
Speaker C:When like he didn't.
Speaker C:He didn't kill you.
Speaker C:Like, you could have stopped.
Speaker C:And he's like, dude, he's like, the gun was in my mouth.
Speaker C:You're like.
Speaker C:And you know in the background they're like, whoa.
Speaker B:Yeah, whoa.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Horrid.
Speaker C:He's gotta stop and think.
Speaker C:If you were.
Speaker C:You rolled up on that crime scene and you.
Speaker C:Then you really realize, like, what went down, and you're just.
Speaker C:And the guy's like, get it up.
Speaker C:You see the picture of it.
Speaker C:And that's one of the things that you have to commend this movie because they could have.
Speaker C:They could have showed a whole lot more.
Speaker C:Like, really lean into the gruesome side of it.
Speaker C:Like, a lot of There's.
Speaker C:I mean, we know some of these movies today that they literally don't shy away from anything.
Speaker C:Like, any amount of sickly gore.
Speaker C:And I'm all for, like, especially war movies.
Speaker C:I want to see it.
Speaker C:I want to feel the action.
Speaker C:I want to be a part of it.
Speaker C:But, like, some things I'm like.
Speaker C:There's definitely a line when it comes to, like, true, like, saw, like, gore that I, like, really want to be about.
Speaker C:But I actually like that in this movie because it left your.
Speaker C:Your imagination kind of wondering.
Speaker C:Like, you could, like, the prostitutes on the bed.
Speaker C:Like, you never actually, like, really saw it, but you saw the thing that he used.
Speaker C:You're like, I mean, I did.
Speaker C:I was like, how'd that really look?
Speaker C:Like, okay.
Speaker C:But you.
Speaker C:It gets you thinking.
Speaker C:And I think that's what the director is really going for.
Speaker C:And I like that because it kind of.
Speaker C:You took your imagination.
Speaker C:Imagination to those places, and it wasn't just thrust upon you.
Speaker C:And I appreciated that.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've often said that.
Speaker B:I think horror movies too often show too much.
Speaker B:Like, our imagination is so much worse than you could ever portray on film.
Speaker B:Like, and don't get me wrong, there's some out there that, like, is disturbing as hell.
Speaker B:And there's some movies like that.
Speaker B:It really works.
Speaker B:Like Final Destination, the original one.
Speaker B:Some of the gore.
Speaker B:And you're like, that worked.
Speaker B:But then in some movies, I'm like.
Speaker B:And I'm.
Speaker B:To your point, Matt.
Speaker B:It's a great call out, because in this movie, like, not seeing the actual murders, by the time we get to 90 of these people, they're either dead or damn near there.
Speaker B:And not seeing the actual act of the murder, to me is more disturbing because I start going through my head, the torture, like, watching.
Speaker B:And the one.
Speaker B:The other genius moment they have is those Polaroids of the dude that was in the bed for a year, that he took a picture of him, like, once a year or whatever it was.
Speaker B:Or, like, once a month.
Speaker B:Yeah, every day for a year, like, while he just disintegrated on a Camera like, that kind of like.
Speaker B:And they just give you enough to see him at the beginning, then when his lips are kind of coming off and then you're at the end and you're like, oh, God, like, I want to see the rest, but I don't.
Speaker B:I. I do, but I don't.
Speaker B:And then I start to think about, like, what would he have looked like six months in?
Speaker B:What would he look like?
Speaker B:You know?
Speaker B:And I'm like, fuck.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I'm with you.
Speaker B:Like, I think that's one of those things that in a situ.
Speaker B:In a lot of situations, less is more.
Speaker B:Get it Just enough to make you go, oh.
Speaker B:And then you go, oh, God, why did I think that?
Speaker B:Like, oh, no, get out of my head.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:And, yeah, so it's just like.
Speaker B:It's a great call out.
Speaker B:That's like, less is more.
Speaker B:Especially in this, like, brutal, brutal, brutal.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker C:Because you found yourself, like, with the.
Speaker C:The shaving of the nose or like, the.
Speaker C:All the things you wanted to be.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:In my head, I was like, oh, what?
Speaker C:I wanted, like, see it a little bit more.
Speaker C:Like, really?
Speaker C:Like, how bad was it all?
Speaker C:And then I'm thinking later, it just.
Speaker C:Then I was the one thinking, like, oh, man, like, lost your nose?
Speaker C:Like, what is she really?
Speaker C:Like, it's probably that I had an image in my head, and you're like, could have been worse than what it was, and.
Speaker C:Or they could have given us their interpretation of it.
Speaker C:And you're like, okay.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:I just appreciated that.
Speaker C:I think, yeah.
Speaker C:Like you said, Jay, more movies put the power back into the.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:The viewer and maybe realize I don't need all of it handed to me.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, and it's.
Speaker B:It's not shock and awe.
Speaker B:It's, like, disturbing.
Speaker B:Like, if we.
Speaker B:For example, like, I often think about what the nose girl, like, where he cuts her nose off.
Speaker B:I'm like, okay, that's actually in the grand scheme of things, the rest of the.
Speaker B:That he did to these other people, like, that's not that bad.
Speaker B:And then when you think about it.
Speaker B:But then you're like, okay, so how did he do it?
Speaker B:Did he run a knife up her nose?
Speaker B:Did he do it slow?
Speaker B:Did he take some really sharp ass scissors and cut it off?
Speaker B:Like, how.
Speaker B:Because that's mostly just cartilage.
Speaker B:And so you could get through it in a number of ways to get her nose off.
Speaker B:And then I'm like, okay, that's just horrifying to think about.
Speaker B:Whereas if we had seen it like, okay, so we walk.
Speaker B:We saw.
Speaker B:We see a hand with a knife, and he cuts off her nose.
Speaker B:We're all gonna go, oh, God, that sucks.
Speaker B:But then the shock of it, after the shock and all wears off.
Speaker B:You're like, okay, we're just moving on with this.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:Like, I could sit here and we're talking about it.
Speaker B:Like, I'll think about for three days.
Speaker B:Like, what would that have been like?
Speaker B:Like, how would that have looked in the moment?
Speaker B:Did he again, did he go slow?
Speaker B:Did he just real fast do it and then her up.
Speaker B:Did he hold a mirror up to her face after she was.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, there's so many things that I have to wonder about because I'm a twisted son of a.
Speaker B:But it sets that tone for the disturbing nature of what we're watching versus we're just gonna shock and awe you and scare you into that moment, and then you'll move past it because your fight or flight kicks in and you're done.
Speaker B:Instead of like the, oh, what about.
Speaker B:And then, oh, what?
Speaker B:Yeah, okay, but what about this?
Speaker B:And what would that have been like?
Speaker B:Oh, no.
Speaker B:So it's just.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's just horrible.
Speaker C:Horrible.
Speaker B:Oh, this movie.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker B:Should we rate it?
Speaker C:Let's do it.
Speaker B:Alec, check us off, buddy.
Speaker A:All right, I'm gonna give it a four and a half.
Speaker A:The only reason I'm docking it is it's a personal thing.
Speaker A:Mostly is the fact that it's very Seven deadly sins, right?
Speaker A:Each one gets murdered and then it almost like falls apart at the end because Brad Pitt becomes wrath and Rat doesn't get murdered.
Speaker A:So the only thing I would have changed is Brad Pitt turns the gun on himself.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you have it wrapped up to where you have these murders for each and every, you know, deadly sin.
Speaker A:Because at this point, it's like.
Speaker A:It almost feels like they forgot too, while making the movie.
Speaker A:But it's something that I. I was like, thinking, sitting there, thinking.
Speaker A:I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Speaker A:Like, you have this big kind of mantra like he's.
Speaker A:We get that sigh of relief like you were talking about jj.
Speaker A:It's done.
Speaker A:It's stuff is.
Speaker A:But not really.
Speaker A:Like, wrath is still technically there and survived.
Speaker A:And so that would be the only thing.
Speaker A:But I'm glad I watched it through for the first time, all the way through, one sitting.
Speaker C:And it was.
Speaker A:It was so good.
Speaker A:So I will be watching it again.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Four and a half for me.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker B:Matson, first timer.
Speaker B:What are you giving it?
Speaker C:Oh, I'VE been mulling this over for a good little bit.
Speaker C:I think I'm gonna give it a four and a half as well.
Speaker C:For me, I think it's just a little bit of the pacing that just eats at me a little bit.
Speaker C:But the acting, the storyline.
Speaker C:I think for me the kicker is just how it ends.
Speaker C:It didn't give me the Hollywood ending and it made me think of Perfect Storm.
Speaker C:Even though it's a true story but just rare that you actually get.
Speaker C:I should like or like Friday Night Lights.
Speaker C:Another movie I love that isn't fully true that I looked it up later.
Speaker C:They actually didn't make it to the championship game.
Speaker C:They lost in the semis to Dallas Carter.
Speaker C:But I like the movie because they lost, they didn't win.
Speaker C:And more often than not we always just see the cliches and this movie was anything but that and could have really been something that happened in real life.
Speaker C:And just the acting performances, man, we like that alone.
Speaker C:It's just some of the scenes in between and like the depressing nature of the movie just where it brags me a little bit.
Speaker C:But it's by design.
Speaker C:I understand that, but I just think a little bit of the pacing just sounds like ah, like it because it is so heavy and so depressing.
Speaker C:I'm like, man, like maybe speed like one or two things up just to get me there.
Speaker C:Because the ending, I mean you're just like, what where we.
Speaker C:Where are we going?
Speaker C:Why are we doing this?
Speaker C:You know something, you know something's coming.
Speaker C:You just don't know exactly.
Speaker C:And I, I had shades in my head.
Speaker C:I knew was going to be his wife, but like you didn't like.
Speaker C:It's just great.
Speaker C:So just because of that.
Speaker C:Otherwise, like what a great movie I've never seen before.
Speaker C:We've done this for a really, really long time and it's.
Speaker C:I'd have to go back.
Speaker C:I mean probably tens, if not hundred, like 100 episodes.
Speaker C:I can't think of a movie like this that came out of left field for me.
Speaker C:And was this good?
Speaker C:It was really good.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker A:Rubber didn't do it for you?
Speaker C:Oh my gosh.
Speaker B:I'm gonna give this a 5.
Speaker B:There's some nostalgia there to it.
Speaker B:But I think in answer to your thing, Alec, I. I used to have an issue with that too.
Speaker B:Like wrath didn't.
Speaker B:It wasn't done.
Speaker B:But then I started thinking as this movie makes me think a few times in.
Speaker B:And I'm like, isn't it though?
Speaker B:Because there's only a handful of things that are going to happen in this moment moving forward.
Speaker B:He's either going to off himself at some point, whether it's in prison, at home, whatever, or two, he's a cop going to prison.
Speaker B:He's probably not going to do very well in there.
Speaker B:And there's a good chance that he may get offed while he's in there.
Speaker B:So in my head I'm like, this is a guy that has the foresight to do everything that he did, even on a rushed timeline, to create this sequence of events.
Speaker B:And so I think in my head, and that's not discrediting your feelings on it at all, because I've been there.
Speaker B:I've reconciled the fact that dead or not in the moment, on the movie, in the movie, there's going to come a moment where this has.
Speaker B:He's won and this thing is complete fully.
Speaker B:Well, even if it takes till he dies of old age, at some point he's completed his mission and he's made this guy live in this most horrible state anyway.
Speaker B:For me, like, again and again, there's a little bit nostalgia to it for me.
Speaker B:But I.
Speaker B:This movie gets me every time I watch it and I see different things and I realize things differently every time I watch it.
Speaker B:I get a different view of certain scenes every time I watch it.
Speaker B:And that's like, if a movie can keep me interested time after time after time without me going, oh, I'm just watching this for the part.
Speaker B:Or I'm like, I'm just gonna YouTube this part because I love it.
Speaker B:No, I want to watch this whole movie because I'm gonna see something different in minute 25 that I didn't see the other 300 times I've watched this movie, right?
Speaker B:So it's like that, to me, is a movie that I love to go back to because it's not just about entertainment.
Speaker B:It's about what this movie does to me.
Speaker B:It makes me think, it makes me wonder, it makes me sick to my stomach, it makes me nervous at night.
Speaker B:Like, there's all these different things that it makes me feel.
Speaker B:And so, like, that to me just gets me every time.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, five for me.
Speaker B:I won't watch this movie anytime.
Speaker B:Like a lot of these movies that I love like this.
Speaker B:I'm like, I watch it anytime, anywhere.
Speaker B:Oh, this one takes me a while.
Speaker B:Like, I watch it and then I have to like, oh, yeah, it's.
Speaker B:I gotta let it cool off for a little bit.
Speaker C:It's like the dark.
Speaker C:It's like I talked about The Dark Knight way back when.
Speaker C:Like, I mean in my Mount Rushmore movies.
Speaker C:But yeah, this is gonna be brought this up.
Speaker C:This is a movie I will watch again.
Speaker C:But you have to give it the time and attention.
Speaker C:You can't.
Speaker C:It's not a pop in, pop out.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's a lot like.
Speaker C:And it's not something you'd be like, oh yeah, like, whoa, let's watch it again.
Speaker C:Like, maybe Alec, but not me.
Speaker A:I'm watching it again.
Speaker B:Yeah, I can't like it.
Speaker B:It, yeah, it messes with me for a while.
Speaker B:So for like it's, it'll be a while before I watch it again.
Speaker B:But it, it's on my L. Like I watch it consistently probably once every couple years.
Speaker C:But I gotta watch it when I'm happy because yeah, I'm trying to watch it when you're a little like you.
Speaker B:Watch when you're having some go down, you're like, ah, wait until shit's doing.
Speaker C:Pretty good down like now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I usually, I.
Speaker B:What usually triggers me to watch this is like somebody will say something or like, like you got a box?
Speaker B:What's in the box?
Speaker B:Like, and then I'll go, now I want to watch seven.
Speaker B:So then I'll pull it out.
Speaker B:Yeah, great movie.
Speaker B:It's good.
Speaker B:Good way to kick off September Brad Pitt movies.
Speaker B:Alec, tell everybody where else they can find us whenever they're not just sitting here listening or watching us.
Speaker A:Happy to.
Speaker A:So like JJ said, week one of September, done in the books with Brad Pitt movies.
Speaker A:We got a pretty good lineup coming for the rest of September.
Speaker A:So the best place to find US is on YouTube to watch all of our episodes.
Speaker A:We release every Monday consistently.
Speaker A:For now, it's up to five years.
Speaker A:JJ and Matson have been doing this every single Monday.
Speaker A:Aside from that, we do have other votes going on.
Speaker A:So September's been picked.
Speaker A:Unfortunately you're not going to be able to get in.
Speaker A:But join us on Patreon at what's our verdict?
Speaker A:Reviews and you can start voting or getting on the voting process for future months coming up.
Speaker A:October, November, December, etc.
Speaker A:Completely free to join in to vote.
Speaker A:We do have extra content on there though and upwards of about 550 episodes now it's gotta be of additional episodes that are full length little bloops behind the scenes content.
Speaker A:Anything that you could ever want that is behind a little bit of paywall.
Speaker A:But toss this couple bucks in, you get access to pretty much double the content.
Speaker A:So those are two places to find us with that I'll kick it back to.
Speaker A:Oh, let's see.
Speaker A:Let's go.
Speaker A:The mauling Mastodon and the Titan of terror.
Speaker B:A. J.J. i appreciate that, sir.
Speaker B:Thanks.
Speaker B:Alec.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Go check us out.
Speaker B:Patreon's a lot of fun.
Speaker B:Some weird on there, but a lot of interesting stuff, too.
Speaker B:So with that, as always, we appreciate you tuning in.
Speaker B:We'll catch you on the next one.
Speaker A:Hasta la vista, baby.
Speaker B:Cinematic.
