Natural Born Killers (1994)
This podcast episode delves into the intricate and often controversial narrative of "Natural Born Killers," a film that portrays two victims of traumatic childhoods who evolve into psychopathic serial murderers, a theme irresponsibly glorified by the mass media. As we embark on this exploration, we reflect on our initial reactions to the film, particularly how it struck us during our youth and the complexities that continue to provoke our thoughts. The discussion juxtaposes the distinct directorial styles of Oliver Stone and Quentin Tarantino, emphasizing how their differing approaches shape the film's tone and character development. We scrutinize the performances of the cast, particularly Woody Harrelson's compelling portrayal, which anchors the film amidst its chaotic narrative. Ultimately, our analysis reveals a blend of admiration and critique, as we grapple with the ethical implications of rootable villains and the film's commentary on societal violence.
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Transcript
It was one of those movies that I was torn as a kid.
Speaker A:And I'm.
Speaker A:I still am a little bit torn as a kid.
Speaker B:Geez Louise.
Speaker A:Hey, listen, I never said I wasn't a little bit psychopath.
Speaker A:I mean, like.
Speaker A:Welcome to the what's Already podcast where we fashion ourselves cinematic judge and Jerry.
Speaker A:My name is J.J. crowder.
Speaker A:I'm here with my co host Alec.
Speaker B:Burgess with let's get it.
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Speaker B:No, don't tell.
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Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:But yeah, they're.
Speaker A:They're.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're still.
Speaker A:We're week three of our NC17 month.
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Speaker A:With that said, let's jump into this week's episode and it is Natural Born Killers.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:It was written by Quentin Tarantino, David Velos and Richard Ratowski.
Speaker A:Directed by Oliver Stone.
Speaker A:It stars Woody Harrelson, Juliet Lewis, Olan Jones, Ed White, Richard Lineback, Lanny Flaherty, Rodney Dangerfield, Carol Made Madrid, Robert Downey Jr. Evan Handler, and oh, where's he at?
Speaker A:Are you serious?
Speaker B:Tommy Lee Jones?
Speaker A:They don't have Tommy Lee Jones in the main list.
Speaker A:Anyway.
Speaker B:Not to Be It Could Be, Could.
Speaker A:Be and Tommy Lee Jones.
Speaker A:It is about two victims of traumatized childhoods who become lovers and psychopathic serial murderers irresponsibly glorified by the mass media.
Speaker A:That's a very good, great explanation for.
Speaker B:That's the best one we've had this, this month so far.
Speaker A:Yeah, so far.
Speaker A:And it's still a little wonky, but makes this movie sound much better than it actually is.
Speaker A:Yes, this one was one of mine.
Speaker A:Correct?
Speaker B:Yeah, this was your pick.
Speaker A:I never remember, but all the time.
Speaker A:But yeah, this was my pick.
Speaker A:And I picked this one because this was like the first movie I ever watched as a kid that I wasn't, like, supposed to.
Speaker A:We were supposed to.
Speaker A:Yeah, like, like, it was like.
Speaker A:So I grew up, like I said, I grew up in this little town in.
Speaker A:In Kentucky around this time.
Speaker A:And I had a buddy, a good buddy, I'm not gonna name any days, but my book Good Buddy was a little.
Speaker A:He was a little out there with some of this, like, he liked this dark ass.
Speaker A:So he's like, we're gonna go sneak into this movie.
Speaker A:And it was the first time.
Speaker A:Like, this was back before, like NC17s.
Speaker A:Like, they stopped putting this kind of stuff in theaters for a long time.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But because of the cast of this movie and the fact that it was an Oliver Stone movie, it got put in theaters, but it was really hard to get into.
Speaker A:And then there was like an R rated version, I think, back then.
Speaker A:And anyway, so they were showing the NC17 in our little mall movie theater and we had to buy tickets to something else and sneak into it.
Speaker A:And, man, was this movie up.
Speaker A:Still up.
Speaker A:Like, this is a this.
Speaker A:And it's funny because it's one of the only movies that Tarantino wrote but didn't direct himself.
Speaker A:And I'll be honest, I. I'm hit and miss with Tarantino.
Speaker A:I either love his or hate it, but I wish he would have been able to direct this movie because I can see that when I see the Tarantino in it, I really like it.
Speaker A:When I see the Oliver Stone in it, I don't.
Speaker A:And those two directors should not pair up.
Speaker A:And they haven't Ever again.
Speaker A:But they should never have paired up for this one either.
Speaker A:And I don't think I.
Speaker A:If I had to guess, and I've listened to some, like, interviews with Tarantino, I don't think this was, like, a choice that he didn't.
Speaker A:It was one of those things where it was the first movie he sold or something like that, and so got picked up and they wanted to put a big director behind it.
Speaker A:And he.
Speaker A:I think after this, he swore he'd never do it again.
Speaker A:Like, it's either him or bust, so.
Speaker A:But I think this could be arguably his best movie if he had directed it, because.
Speaker A:And it's typical Tarantino.
Speaker A:Ish.
Speaker A:And then Oliver Stone, like, the cast is monumental.
Speaker A:And how you get the cast to do a movie like this, I'm like, what the.
Speaker A:But God damn, did they kill it?
Speaker A:Like, that's.
Speaker A:It's some of the best.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:It's one of those movies that I. I haven't watched it in probably 20 years, but I wasn't sad to go back to it and just kind of refresh myself.
Speaker A:It had been that long.
Speaker A:And there's really great parts, and then there's parts.
Speaker A:I'm like, that's just unnecessary and weird.
Speaker A:And we.
Speaker A:Really weird.
Speaker A:But, yeah, so that's what.
Speaker A:I picked it.
Speaker A:Had you seen this one before?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:You're welcome.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So when this showed up, I went in expecting the worst.
Speaker B:And then we get that opening scene, and I'm like, okay, Woody Harrelson.
Speaker B:Okay, okay.
Speaker B:And, you know, you get a little bit as well, tidbit that Robert Downey Jr. Is gonna play a big part.
Speaker B:And I'm like, okay, okay.
Speaker B:You know, I get behind this.
Speaker B:And then it just.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And most of the movie, I was like, huh?
Speaker B:Trying to figure it out.
Speaker B:Because I think this might be what you're alluding to with the Oliver Stone versus Tarantino.
Speaker B:But I was really wigged out or couldn't figure out the timeline in this movie.
Speaker B:And looks like or feels like they've been on this rampage for, you know, years.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And they're getting all this media attention now because of this or that.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:Then we find out it's three weeks.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it makes it more impressive from a mass murdery standpoint.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:But at the same time, like, everything that you're leading up to or the surroundings, and you have this, you know, weird but really intriguing backstory of, like, a soap opera that's the creepiest soap opera ever.
Speaker B:To show Mallory's backstory.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so Then you're thinking, okay, that's trauma that she's left in her past but keeps resurfacing.
Speaker B:But no, that was like a month ago.
Speaker B:Yeah, that happened.
Speaker B:And so having that kind of reveal happen had me all sorts of like, wait, what?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I almost would have appreciated more had it been like, these guys have been on the road for years, and it be more the Bonnie and Clyde, like, they can't be stopped type of a thing, versus three weeks that they've been on this rampage and they're just piling up bodies during that time.
Speaker A:Yeah, agreed.
Speaker B:But, yeah, so it was.
Speaker B:That was like a little like, wait, what?
Speaker B:Type of an attitude.
Speaker B:But it's hard to argue for me anyway.
Speaker B:I like, it's a pretty good movie.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Even with all the up shit that happens.
Speaker B:And it's a pretty good mov.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I did, I guess, as well, like, the.
Speaker B:There was a little bit late on the reveal about, you know, somebody always.
Speaker B:One person lives to tell the tale.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so, because I. I was like, dang, he just threw a knife through the window at that guy who was just working on the truck.
Speaker B:And that's before you, you know, realize that they're the psychotic kind of individuals.
Speaker B:Because up to that point, like, even though I would say it's an overreaction, the guys in the diner deserved it.
Speaker B:Sure, they.
Speaker B:They keep pushing and pushing, pushing like they get what's coming to him, but the dude is just out of the truck.
Speaker B:I was like, that guy didn't do nothing.
Speaker B:And then it's revealed later that they just kind of go in and shoot up whatever they want to and then call it quits.
Speaker B:But one person, they leave alive to tell the tale of, you know, and so it's like that kind of reveal came a little bit late.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:To my mind.
Speaker B:And so I was.
Speaker B:I was again playing a little bit of catch up, trying to figure out, like, why.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:It was one of those movies that I was torn as a kid, and I'm.
Speaker A:I still am a little bit torn as a kid.
Speaker B:Geez Louise.
Speaker A:Hey, listen, I never said I wasn't a little bit psychopath.
Speaker A:I mean, it's like, oh.
Speaker A:But I think so.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker A:And I can't help.
Speaker A:And I. I probably shouldn't, but I can't help make that direct comparison of what would have.
Speaker A:What the differences may have been if Tarantino had directed it.
Speaker A:Like, I think Tarantino leans more into the humor of this and in his Movies and like the taking the really dark and shitty situations and ugliness of the world and making it funny, like finding the humor in it.
Speaker A:And Oliver Stone isn't in that.
Speaker A:So like he's more of like the make these dark, gritty, realistic.
Speaker A:And so you see that come through and then you get these weird characters like Robert Downey Jr's character, or Tommy Lee Jones, this character, the Warden, who are so over the top and ridiculous that they can't be anything but funny.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so there you see full on the writing of Quentin Tarantino and then a direct contrast to the direction of an Oliver Stone, because in most Oliver Stone movies, there's not a character like either of those characters.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Everything in all of a Stone movies typically is very serious and very grounded in real.
Speaker A:In reality.
Speaker A:Whereas these are caricatures.
Speaker A:And that is a definite Tarantino thing.
Speaker A:And so you can tell it was written in that caricature form versus the, the grounded reality.
Speaker A:So that's another reason I say these two don't mix.
Speaker A:And I think this movie could have been very.
Speaker A:Even more interesting.
Speaker A:And it's again, not saying it's a bad movie.
Speaker A:I enjoy this movie in a lot of ways, but I think it could have been very much better if it did have some of that comedic relief that wasn't accidental because we also get a lot of accidental comedic relief in this.
Speaker A:I think that shouldn't be funny, but it is.
Speaker A:And not purposefully funny, but shouldn't be like a lot of Tarantino stuff.
Speaker A:So it's really tough.
Speaker A:I get really, like, I have mixed feelings when I'm watching this movie because I'm like, man, I'd really love to see a version of that.
Speaker B:Quentin Tarantino would direct the Tarantino cut.
Speaker A:Yeah, the Terry.
Speaker A:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker A:So, but.
Speaker A:But at the end of the day, like, I don't want to.
Speaker A:Also don't want to decry Oliver Stone because he's an amazing.
Speaker A:Some of some of his films are some of my favorites.
Speaker A:Like, any given Sunday, I fucking love that movie.
Speaker A:So it's really tough for me to like, make that comparison and realize that this could have been an even better movie.
Speaker A:But I can't deny it because I also think if Oliver Stoughton had written this movie, it would have been even better and very different.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You wouldn't have had the.
Speaker A:The weird acid trip esque type that's going on.
Speaker A:You would have just had this dark and gritty, probably more along the lines of what you were probably first thinking of when you start seeing you Know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, where we.
Speaker A:We actually go down the lines of the depth of their trauma and, like, the reasons that they're psychopathic versus, let's just hear, you know, hero vaunt.
Speaker A:These two serial killers because everyone around them is so terribly awful that you can't help but, like, go, okay.
Speaker A:With the exception of their own one regret in.
Speaker A:In the Native American dude.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:Which is also, to me, like, out of place in this movie, that whole sequence.
Speaker A:I understand that they needed something to lead into them being a.
Speaker A:Being up so they get caught, but it just felt so out of place to me in this movie.
Speaker A:Like, it.
Speaker A:I was like, that could have been.
Speaker A:There could have been a million things that got them caught.
Speaker A:That feels weird.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Running.
Speaker B:Running out of gas in the desert is enough.
Speaker A:Yeah,.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You don't have to go more than that to get your point across.
Speaker B:But even, like.
Speaker B:Like, you were talking about the.
Speaker B:The funny parts where it shouldn't be funny, like, there's so much of that that it gets a little much.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so, like,.
Speaker A:It's bad.
Speaker B:I'm gonna get canceled.
Speaker B:But Rodney Dangerfield.
Speaker B:Oh, God, the performance he puts on is amazing.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Unintentionally funny.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:Yes, it should not be funny.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:But I am.
Speaker B:I'm sitting there with like, no, I can't laugh.
Speaker B:I shouldn't laugh.
Speaker B:But it's his portrayal of, you know, going into as being this backstory as Mallory's dad who's abusive in many multiple ways.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But his delivering everything.
Speaker B:I'm just sitting there going, don't laugh, don't laugh, don't laugh, don't laugh.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because it's funny.
Speaker B:And he delivers it in such a way that makes it funny.
Speaker B:And then on top of that, you have the, you know, a added bonus of it being in a sitcom, you know, kind of environment with a laugh track, which, you know, is.
Speaker B:Is designed to tell you when you're supposed to laugh.
Speaker B:And so there's so much uncomfortable that's happening while I'm watching those parts because I'm just like, that was pretty good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I would have liked more of.
Speaker B:Who was it?
Speaker B:Tom Sizemore.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Because his character almost feels unnecessary in the final cut.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And there.
Speaker B:But you have hints that he's the.
Speaker B:You know, it's like.
Speaker B:It's like Sherlock Holmes.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:In the sense that you talk in the novels.
Speaker B:It's like, if it wasn't for the law type of a thing.
Speaker B:Sherlock Holmes be the greatest.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, perhaps Mass Murderer, mastermind, evil mastermind type of person out there.
Speaker B:But because the law, he's gone the on.
Speaker B:He's on the right side of it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you had an opportunity, I think, with Tom Sizemore in that kind of thing.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:And they instead just decided to make him more unhinged.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In the Mass Murderer.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:We're going for this, so.
Speaker B:Because it almost feels like, you know, when we first are introduced to him at the gas station.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And he's figuring stuff out, it's like, oh, okay, this is the guy who's gonna, you know, come in and he's.
Speaker B:He's the one they call in when things go wrong.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:He's the fix it guy.
Speaker B:And then the next scene is him strangling the.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sex worker that he hired.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so it almost just throws away what could be, in my mind, like a really good character that you can throw through.
Speaker B:But this is where I see the negative in Tarantino.
Speaker B:And I'll say it's.
Speaker B:He goes too big.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And then tries in his storytelling, and instead of trying to break it up or tell a specific part of a story, it just balloons.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so now you have too many competing lines going back and forth.
Speaker B:And it's still great movie, but I think it could be better without having the reservation storyline going on.
Speaker B:And then you have an escape sequence that takes 35 minutes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which is like a third of the movie.
Speaker B:And it could be shrunk a bit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:To wrap up some other loose ends or tell some more compelling stories.
Speaker B:But instead, it's just like, in and out, in and out, in and out.
Speaker B:And so it feels to me, anyway, that you wasted Tom Sizemore a little bit.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Because he's great.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And having him be this psychopathic detective.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, fits in the.
Speaker B:In the end cut, how it was.
Speaker B:But there's a lot of it where I was like, oh, you could have done so much if you made him still toe the line.
Speaker B:And it would be like, what was that one you made me watch?
Speaker B:Nocturnal Animals.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Who is it?
Speaker B:Whoever plays a sheriff.
Speaker B:I forget his name.
Speaker B:Matthew.
Speaker B:I forget Michael.
Speaker B:Michael.
Speaker B:Anyway, that kind of, like, toe the line.
Speaker B:I'm breaking the law.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker B:Michael Shanahan.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Michael Shannon.
Speaker B:Michael Shannon.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:Okay, so you have, like, this toe the line.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I'm gonna dance with it and I'm gonna jump over a little bit back and forth.
Speaker B:But instead he just went full psycho.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, almost immediately after me and him.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh, well, that was a little bit of a letdown.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because now I'm back to rooting for Valerie.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You're not wrong.
Speaker A:That is.
Speaker A:And we've talked about Tarantino in the past too, where, like, he doesn't edit himself.
Speaker A:And sometimes that works out really well and other times it doesn't.
Speaker A:I think that's one of the things that surprises me a little bit about this movie too.
Speaker A:And I don't know how close he was to the production of the movie, but, like, it sometimes feels like there were parts that could have been edited, especially the direction that they took with the movie to where you.
Speaker A:You have this script that Tarantino wrote, but can't you edit it down since you now own the script and you're making the movie?
Speaker A:Like, it does feel a lot over the top in places very Tarantino esque.
Speaker A:Over the top in places that it didn't feel necessary to be that over top, over the top with.
Speaker A:And then I also think that there's some places where they could have gone even further.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, I think, to be honest, I would love to see that whole reservation piece not there at all.
Speaker A:And then extend out their opening.
Speaker A:Like, give me more of like a.
Speaker A:Like a montage maybe of all their murderous behavior for three weeks.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like, let me see the dark side of what they're doing instead of like, me almost.
Speaker A:Because to your point, the first time we see them go nuts, besides, mom and dad is at the diner, right?
Speaker A:And so it's like, I want to see more.
Speaker A:Like, who else did they.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:50 People.
Speaker A:I only got to see like six, right.
Speaker A:Seven, whatever it was.
Speaker A:So it's like, let me see a little bit more.
Speaker A:If we're going to lean into this, let's lean into it and then have them get to that point where they realize, like, and then we start to get their life.
Speaker A:Because I think the other part that bothers me too is I don't think it's.
Speaker A:It's when we get to the prison and he's doing the interview and like, we get all this philosophizing of like, I don't care and I just want to kill and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:I'm like, you didn't earn that, though.
Speaker A:Like, not.
Speaker A:Not to the level that he's like acting so like some sort of like psychopathic guru, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, I need more for me to be sold on that particular level of philosophization of your murder spree.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So it's I don't know.
Speaker A:It's weird.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker B:He's not publishing his manifesto.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because it's, it's supposed to be this deep thing, but really at the surface they just like killing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like that's all it really is.
Speaker B:And so I, I like your point because I'll tell you what I would have liked to see.
Speaker B:Even though it, you know, we're talking going back in time type of a thing, but I would like to see a lot of the keen men style violence.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Going through where you have.
Speaker B:Because we get a little bit in the diner.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The moving camera coming around, spinning around, showing the, the bullets flying type of a thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the knife going through the window and stuff like that.
Speaker B:But lean into that more.
Speaker B:And then I could have done a lot less with like the rapey sexy vibes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like the whole hotel scene.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Don't need it.
Speaker B:Don't need her seducing a gas station attendant to then just put four in them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But show me going into the Target or the Bass Pro Shops type store they're going into.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And just, you know, laying ways.
Speaker B:Locked and loaded.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like Tallahassee from Zombieland.
Speaker B:Locked and loaded.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And just coming up with like these creative ways to cause violence.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because that is far more interesting.
Speaker B:And then when you get to later, you can have, instead of this deep, you know, philosophical discussions, you can almost have.
Speaker B:You took a.
Speaker B:You killed a guy with a weed whacker type of a thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like what were you thinking?
Speaker B:Or you bashed him with the baseball bat.
Speaker B:And so instead of.
Speaker B:You could have this more just lean into all the violence.
Speaker B:Yeah, Possibly could.
Speaker B:And then have that kind of style that we see in the diner where it's back and forth, very camera heavy movement to illustrate what's happening.
Speaker B:Because the diner's pretty good opening sequence.
Speaker A:Yeah, diner's great.
Speaker B:And then it.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, the movie kind of goes downhill a little bit from there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In terms of just scenes in general.
Speaker B:And then by the time you get to the prison escape scene, like it's just.
Speaker B:Then you Then you have full on Tarantino gore.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's just full on mayhem at that point.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:A lot of it doesn't even make sense type mayhem.
Speaker A:You're like, what?
Speaker B:And people are losing more blood than they have in their bodies and stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:To move and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, and then like eight shotgun shell shots to one guy that at the end, like when they, when they offer Robert Downey Jr's character, I'm like, dude, he'd be like hamburger.
Speaker A:As close as they are.
Speaker A:And they all unloaded like five or six shots.
Speaker A:Like, he's hamburger.
Speaker A:He's not just got a shredded shirt.
Speaker A:But I understand, like, you can't go that.
Speaker A:But like, give him something other than the shotgun.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Have a little fun with it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:A lot of weird choices in a lot of places in this movie.
Speaker A:I would agree is.
Speaker A:And it's weird because I think it's only weird because it's not Tarantino.
Speaker A:Like, if.
Speaker A:If Tarantino had directed.
Speaker A:I expect it.
Speaker A:Oliver Stone directing it.
Speaker A:I don't expect it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I expect.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's this dichotomy that I guess if you go into it not knowing what you're watching and who was involved per se, like, you're making.
Speaker A:Maybe less judgy about it than I am, but, like, that's.
Speaker A:I'm just like, this could have been even better than it was.
Speaker A:And it was pretty good.
Speaker A:But I'll say too, that a lot of what made it good is Woody Harrelson.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:He's so good in this.
Speaker A:Like, I.
Speaker A:And I know Woody Harrelson had movies well before this, but, man, this was like.
Speaker A:I think back on this a lot of times, there's like some really high level Woody Harrelson because he carries the.
Speaker A:Out of this movie until we get Tommy Lee Jones.
Speaker A:Because Tommy Jones is outrageous as his character is.
Speaker A:Can't take his.
Speaker A:My eyes off of him, dude, as long as he's in it.
Speaker B:No, I. I agree.
Speaker B:Because there's a.
Speaker B:A lot of, like, bad Woody Harrelson movies.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B: , you know, through the early: Speaker B:He's had a really nice resurgence.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Over the last decade or two decades or so, which is great.
Speaker B:But this, I was a little bit worried knowing that it's like, oh, this is.
Speaker B:This is early Wardy Harrelson.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You never know.
Speaker B:And then you also have like, early Robert Downey Jr.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The same thing.
Speaker B:And so, you know, you still have great Tommy Lee Jones.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, Tommy Lee Jones is solid, but it would.
Speaker B:Those two especially.
Speaker B:I was kind of like, you know, it's going flip.
Speaker B:Let's see what happens.
Speaker B:And both of them did such a great job.
Speaker B:But Woody Harrelson especially.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Like pure psychopath.
Speaker B:Tennessee got the eyes going.
Speaker B:And the.
Speaker B:The mannerisms are all down to, you know, down.
Speaker B:Down to having that almost psychotic OCD tendency.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Then just senseless yeah.
Speaker B:The senseless kind of.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:For the fun of it.
Speaker B:Yeah, for the fun of it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Do that.
Speaker A:It's wild.
Speaker A:Well, and he had to carry a lot, too, because, I'll be honest, I don't like Juliet Lewis at all.
Speaker B:Like, she's a little hard.
Speaker A:She's never.
Speaker A:And there's nothing that she's in that I'm like, oh, yeah, it's Juliet Lewis.
Speaker A:I'm always like, oh, it's Julia Juliet Lewis.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So for the fact that I still want to see them on screen, you know, I mean, I'm not.
Speaker A:This obviously isn't her worst movie, but Woody Harrison really made it easier to deal with Juliet Lewis.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I almost think that it was a little bit of.
Speaker B:For me, anyway, like, the severe mood swings and they put into Mallory, which makes sense everything.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But at the same time, that's not Tarantino so much.
Speaker B:He picks up one kind of area that he's gonna focus on, and then he makes a character one dimensional if he doesn't know what to do with them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so that I could see being much better if you get diner Mallory.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Versus getting just moody, broody Mallory or reservation Mallory.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:All these different types of emotions going on.
Speaker B:Which doesn't help Juliet at all.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:In the portrayal.
Speaker B:But at the same time, then you look at Woody Harrelson as Mickey, and he's just very consistent across the board.
Speaker B:And so there's times where I like Mallory better than Mickey, but.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:But most of the time, like, now, Woody Harrelson.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Way better at this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And she just.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:The scene was one of those things.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, it's almost like they're trying to turn her into, like, the tragic.
Speaker B:Tragic villain type things.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:But at the same time, I'm not.
Speaker B:I don't have any sympathy, so it's not working.
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker A:You know, I. I've always said I would have loved to have seen.
Speaker A:In her role instead of.
Speaker A:Julia Lewis is a young Angelina Jolie.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, dude.
Speaker A:Like, when she.
Speaker A:She did a movie, and I can't.
Speaker A:I can never remember the name of it.
Speaker A:Casey loves it.
Speaker A:But if, like, there's a movie that Angelina Jolie did that was, like, she was like, the young Gia.
Speaker A:It's called Gia Chia.
Speaker A:She's a young.
Speaker A:It's one of her first movies, and she plays this model that's a little unhinged to a certain degree.
Speaker A:Like, and it's.
Speaker A:And I think about that movie or like, her in the one with.
Speaker A:Where they're in the.
Speaker A:The psych ward.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Oh, God.
Speaker A:Anyways, anyways, she has a couple movies when she was younger that I was like, she would have been really good.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And in Gia, she has weird hair.
Speaker A:Like, the natural hair that Juliet Lewis has was very similar to what Angelina Jolie wore in the movie Gia, at least parts of it.
Speaker A:So it's like, I think those two, if you could have swapped them, God, that would have been wild, wild, wild.
Speaker A:Because Julia Lewis, to me, has just never been a great actress.
Speaker A:Like, I.
Speaker A:She's not someone that I go, oh, that was a great performance.
Speaker A:Whereas Angelina Jolie drives me crazy, especially the older she got.
Speaker A:But her performances are just unbelievably good.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I think she would have given Woody Harrelson in this film a run for his money for sure.
Speaker A:So that's always just been one of my thoughts.
Speaker A:I was like, she would have been good.
Speaker A:Would have been good.
Speaker A:And she looks scary.
Speaker A:Like, she's one of those two people, too, that, like, you look at her and you're like, you could be up.
Speaker A:Like, you could do some weird.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, I just.
Speaker A:I mean, she has done some weird.
Speaker A:Like, anybody that's wearing vials of blood around their neck when they're young.
Speaker A:And, yeah, as a show of.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's some.
Speaker A:There's something off there.
Speaker A:So I. I think she would have been great.
Speaker A:But anyway, that was just one of my weird observations that I've always had with this movie.
Speaker A:Should we rate it?
Speaker B:Let's do it.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Mine first.
Speaker A:Gosh dang, I'm gonna give this a 4.
Speaker A:It's a tough one for me.
Speaker A:Like, I teeter between three and a half and four, and I think it would be an easy four and a half, five if Tarantino had either directed it or Oliver Stone had written it and directed it.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So either.
Speaker A:Give it full control of both to one or the other, and I think this would have been an even better movie.
Speaker A:But it's still an entertaining movie and it's still an interesting show of the psychosis throughout, like, even.
Speaker A:And there's no good guys in this movie.
Speaker A:There's no bad guys.
Speaker A:There's just a lot of up people.
Speaker A:And I think a lot of times we forget that that's more close to human nature than good versus evil and heroes versus villains.
Speaker A:Like, usually in most real life situations, there's just people, and we're all a little up on some level.
Speaker A:So I like how this portrays that.
Speaker A:And I've always enjoyed the fact that when I can sit and go, well, I was kind of rooting for a mass murderer right there.
Speaker A:Like those ones always make me.
Speaker A:It's an interesting dichotomy of like, I shouldn't be rooting for these people, but I am because who else am I going to root for?
Speaker A:The crooked cop, the shitty warden, the, like, who.
Speaker A:There's nobody else to root for.
Speaker A:So it's really interesting.
Speaker A:Intriguing thought.
Speaker A:But I think what really boils down to for me is Woody Harrelson's performance along with the other side performances in this movie.
Speaker A:Juliet Lewis doesn't impress me, as we've talked about.
Speaker A:So I. I think she detracts from the movie more often than she helps it.
Speaker A:When she does help it, it's great, but it's very rare.
Speaker A:But goddamn, Woody Harrelson carries the out of this movie.
Speaker A:And it's wildly entertaining in that it's just weird as.
Speaker A:But it makes sense as weird as.
Speaker A:And plays out well.
Speaker A:So, yeah, four.
Speaker A:For me, this is another movie that I don't seek out watching.
Speaker A:It's really dark and hard to watch, and it's weird.
Speaker A:And I don't leave feel funky Dory.
Speaker A:I leave usually going, I'm.
Speaker A:I need to go watch something funny now.
Speaker A:But yeah, I mean, I'd want.
Speaker A:I'll watch it again.
Speaker A:I'm sure down the road.
Speaker A:It's somewhere.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:I'm also gonna be a four.
Speaker B:I think it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's another one that was kind of like last week where it's wrong to say it's an enjoyable watch, but I don't mind watching it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And there are moments that get me, like, we didn't talk about it, but near the end where they go into the convenience store.
Speaker B:That's what I would say is the funny part of the movie.
Speaker B:And I'm cackling when Woody Harrelson is, like, looking at the TV and looking at the guy behind the glass and kind of putting two and two together.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, he knows who I am type of a thing.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:But that's just, you know, Woody Harrelson, like, drumming his fingers on the countertop and being able to have that range of back and forth to psychotic mass murderer, but also the, you know, just irritated with slow customer service at the same time and going back and forth from there.
Speaker B:And so there's.
Speaker B:There's plenty that I like about it playing that's enjoyable.
Speaker B:But there are parts that I was like, you can get rid of that you can make it a much better movie if you change this, change that, or, you know, utilize Tom size more.
Speaker B:And there's so much more that I think kind of what you said, if Tarantino directed it or maybe if Oliver Stone wrote it, or if you have someone else directing in tandem with Tarantino who kind of has that same twisted sense of humor that he does, then this becomes a really, really good movie.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Rather than where it's at, which is just.
Speaker B:It's good.
Speaker B:But it'll be a four for me and I know I'm gonna watch it again.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Even though this is the first time I'll be watching this again.
Speaker B:Not all the parts.
Speaker B:I'll skip through some.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:There.
Speaker A:There are highly skilled skippable parts in this movie, so.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Sweet.
Speaker A:Well, there it is.
Speaker A:Another one down.
Speaker A:Natural Born Killers.
Speaker A:Alec, tell everybody where they can find us when we're not dodging psychotics.
Speaker B:Happy to.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Please don't tell no psychotics about us.
Speaker B:Yeah, we don't need that.
Speaker B:Best place to see us is on YouTube where you see our smiling faces as we're talking about terrible movies this month.
Speaker B:Thank you for that, Charles.
Speaker B:But Patreon is the best place to get involved with our content.
Speaker B:We are doing this thing where we're doing votes for every month and our boats have consequences this time around.
Speaker B:So we.
Speaker B:Neither one of us wants to lose.
Speaker B:Although I definitely want to win more than JJ because we have watched some doozies this year.
Speaker B:But you can get involved with the contents absolutely free.
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Speaker B:What's our verdict?
Speaker B:You can vote on topics, vote on our movie choices, and from there, watch us compete.
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Speaker B:Everything from outtakes and bloopers all the way up to movies that we watch so that you wouldn't have to.
Speaker B:And on top of that, movies we cannot put onto the actual channel.
Speaker B:We will get canceled so quickly.
Speaker B:But Patreon is the best place to get involved.
Speaker B:What's our verdict in addition, that like JD said at the beginning, we are partnered with Dubby.
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Speaker B:And with that, I'll give it send it back to the Molly Monarch, the Titan of Terror.
Speaker B:A. JJ yes, sir.
Speaker A:Appreciate it.
Speaker A:Alec.
Speaker A:Yeah?
Speaker A:Go check us out.
Speaker A:Go get yourself some energy powder.
Speaker A:And as always, with that, we appreciate you tuning in.
Speaker A:We'll catch you on the next one.
Speaker B:Hasta la vista, baby.
Speaker A:Cinematic.
